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We’re joined this week by a special guest blogger. Patricia T. O’Conner, a former editor at The New York Times Book Review, is the author of the national best-seller Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe’s Guide to Better English in Plain English, as well as other books about language. She is a regular monthly guest on public radio station WNYC in New York. Learn more at her website, grammarphobia.com. Today she’s answering questions from our readers.
Q: “All right … so there’s no good reason to not end a sentence in a preposition … but that doesn’t mean that I have to like hearing, ‘Where you at.’”—Posted by Fruppi on 5/5
A: The problem with “Where you at?” isn’t that it ends in a preposition. The problem is that it shouldn’t have a preposition at all. (What it ought to have is a verb!)
Constructions like “Where is my car at?” and “Where are my keys at?” are considered substandard usage because “where” makes the addition of “at” redundant. “Where” essentially means “at (or in) what place,” so adding another “at” is overkill. It’s roughly equivalent to saying, “In which pocket are they in?”
Q: “Can we look forward to a discussion of the singular they this week?”—Posted by s michael c on 5/5
A: I didn’t discuss this on the blog but I’m glad you brought it up. The singular they or them or their has been considered wrong for a couple of centuries, and it’s still a no-no. (Example: “If anybody uses a cell phone, tell them not to.”) But it’s become so common that only a few of us diehards notice anymore! That doesn’t make it right, though. They, them or their are not legitimate singular pronouns, according to nearly all usage and style guides. And I don’t like using “he or she” and “him or her,” either.
Here’s some historical perspective. Once upon a time, English speakers routinely used they to refer to indefinite pronouns that take singular verbs, like anyone, anybody, nobody, and someone. The Oxford English Dictionary has published references for this usage going back to the 16th century. But in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, grammarians began condemning the use of they as a singular pronoun on the grounds that it was illogical. Numerically speaking, they were right, but this left us with a great big hole in English where a gender-neutral, number-neutral pronoun ought to be.
That’s the way things stand now, despite all the history, leaving the careful writer with the problem of finding an acceptable alternative to the singular they.
Here’s one solution: In a long piece of writing, you might use “him” in some places and “her” in others when referring to a generic individual. Another solution is to write around the problem—don’t use the pronoun at all. Example: “Someone forgot to pay the bills” (instead of “their bills”). Or: “If anyone calls, say I’m out” (instead of “tell them I’m out”).
If you do use they, them, or their, then make the subject (or referent noun) plural instead of singular. A sentence like “Every parent dotes on their child” could instead be “All parents dote on their children.” Instead of “A person should mind their own business,” make it “People should mind their own business.” Be creative. Disregarding the plural nature of they isn’t the answer.
Q: “Would you please address the misuse/overuse of the word myself? It seems the use of the word has become more popular lately. One example I hear a lot is ‘Myself and my friends….’ This sounds so wrong to me, or am I incorrect? Another one is irregardless. Is that a real word?”—Posted by JaneM on 5/6
A: People use myself when they can’t decide between “I” and “me.” This isn’t just a cop-out; it’s bad English. The word myself is reserved for two uses: (1) To emphasize: “Let me do it myself.” (2) To refer to a subject already mentioned: “I can see myself in the mirror.” If you could just as well use “I” or “me,” then you shouldn’t resort to myself.
As for irregardless, it’s definitely out of bounds. It blends “regardless” with “irrespective,” and the result is a redundancy that has both a negative prefix and a negative suffix! As one reader (lala) so cleverly commented, it’s a one-word double negative! Is it real? Well, lots of people use irregardless and you’ll find it in dictionaries, so it’s real all right. But not everything in a dictionary is good English. Read the fine print: Both Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.) and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed.) call it “nonstandard.”
Q: “If President Bush (41) and President Bush (43) were walking down the street together, what would be the correct statement? ‘Here come the Presidents Bush … the Bush Presidents … the President Bushes’? Or, ‘Here comes President Bush and President Bush’? These questions must be answered before the next President is inaugurated.”—Posted by Witty Nickname on 5/6
A: Your first suggestion is right: “the Presidents Bush.” Similarly, Presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams are often referred to jointly as “the Presidents Adams” or “both Presidents Adams.” When in doubt, think of Dostoyevsky (The Brothers Karamazov).
Q: “What’s the best contraction for ‘am not’? For example, how should one best end this sentence: ‘Since contractions are required, I’m forced to use one now, am I not?’”—Posted by John on 5/7
A. This is a very interesting question! The answer (aren’t I) takes us back to the history of the most fascinating contraction of them all: ain’t.
Today, ain’t is considered the poster child of poor English, but it wasn’t always so. It was probably first used around 1600, just when most of our English contractions—all perfectly legitimate, I might add—were being formed: don’t, can’t, isn’t, and many more. For centuries, ain’t was just one of the crowd. It was first seen in print in the late 1600s, spelled an’t, a’n’t, and eventually ain’t. (Some scholars believe the new spelling may have reflected the way the word was pronounced by certain speakers.)
Ain’t was originally a contraction of “am not” and “are not.” But by the early 1700s, it was also being used as a contraction for “is not.” And by the 1800s it was used for “have not” and “has not” too, replacing an earlier contraction, ha’n’t. Naturally, as ain’t took on more and more meanings it drifted further and further from its roots, and here’s where the grammarians and schoolmarms took notice. Contractions like can’t and don’t had clearly traceable parentage, but ain’t had so many possible parents that it seemed illegitimate. So 19th-century critics turned up their noses and declared ain’t a crime against good English.
That created a problem, of course—what to use in place of ain’t I as a contraction for “am I not.” The obsolete “amn’t I” was a tongue-twister (it survives today only in Scots and Irish English). As we all know by now, we ended up with aren’t I, which clearly makes no sense. How can we justify it if we don’t say “I aren’t”? And how did it come about, anyway?
As it happens, aren’t I didn’t exist until the early 20th century, when British novelists and dramatists started using it to reproduce the way upper-class speakers pronounced ain’t I. (In the mouth of an old Etonian, ain’t rhymed with “taunt” rather than “taint.”) Illogical it may be, but aren’t I caught on in both Britain and the United States. It may have come out of left field, but today it’s standard English while ain’t I definitely isn’t.
Too bad. I rather like ain’t, though I’m too cowardly to use it. If it hadn’t outgrown its old meanings of “am not” and “are not,” it might be acceptable today. And we’d have a sensible contraction for “am I not.”
Q: “The English/Irish refer to a team as a plural thing (‘England are playing great football this season’). I realize the English invented English but this drives me nuts! To me it is a non-issue. A team was, is, and always will be ONE team, no matter if there are 2 people or 2,000 people. A couple is always two but it is still just one couple. And certainly not to argue with you but I don’t like your example ‘A couple of tenants own geckos.’ I think the only reason it sounds acceptable is because the word tenants is plural. But you always have to ignore prepositional phrases. Anyway, just my two cents.”—Posted by Rob on 5/8
A: The British have a much broader attitude toward collective nouns than we do. To us, “team” is singular, but to them it’s a collective that they treat as a plural. In fact, things like soccer teams (“Manchester are leading”), companies (“Mobil plan to invest”), and government bodies (“the Cabinet have met”) are all treated as plural in Britain.
They use punctuation marks and articles (a, an, the) and all sorts of other things differently, too. But do NOT assume that British English is purer or more correct than American English. Many characteristics that we identify with modern-day British English—the different usages, spellings, vocabulary words, some points of grammar, even the British accent with its broad a’s and dropped r’s—developed after the Revolutionary War. Remember that the Colonists brought with them 17th- and 18th-century British English, much of which has been preserved on our side of the Atlantic (and much of which has been altered on theirs). So what’s considered correct in London is not necessarily correct in Philadelphia. A chapter in my next book will be devoted to this issue, which I discussed recently on my blog. Here’s a link.
As for the collective noun couple, I don’t agree that an attached prepositional phrase should be ignored when you’re deciding whether the word is singular or plural. Certainly it’s singular here: “The couple next-door vacations in Hawaii.” But just as certainly it’s plural here: “A couple of my friends vacation in Hawaii.” And couple is plural here even without a prepositional phrase, because it’s assumed: “Where do your friends vacation?” … “A couple [of them] vacation in Hawaii, and a couple more prefer ski resorts.”
Q: “I feel like I remember having read in my old college Chicago Manual of Style that there are a select few proper names for which the possessive is ’ and not ’s. I think one was Jesus (as in ‘He followed Jesus’ teachings,’ not ‘He followed Jesus’s teachings’). I think it was the same for Moses and Sophocles … am I making this up?”—Posted by lala on 5/8
A: You remember correctly! The usual practice in making names possessive is to add an apostrophe plus s. But there’s an exception. When a Biblical or classical name ends in s, the custom is to add just the apostrophe: Jesus’ disciples, Hercules’ strength, Xerxes’ writings, Archimedes’ principle.
We also drop the s and use only the apostrophe in certain idiomatic expressions with the word “sake” (this avoids a pileup of sibilants). Examples: “for goodness’ sake,” “for conscience’ sake,” “for righteousness’ sake,” “for convenience’ sake.”
Q: “OK, so this has always really bugged me: is it the 1970s or the 1970’s? For example, ‘I was born in the 1970s.’ Or, ‘I was born in the 1970’s.’ I was always under the impression the apostrophe was erroneous, but I guess I might be wrong!”—Posted by Beth on 5/8
A: It’s true that you never add an apostrophe to make an ordinary noun plural. But the plurals of numbers are another matter, a style issue that publishers have differed on over the years. In the first two editions of my book Woe Is I, my recommendation was to add an apostrophe plus s to make a number plural: 3’s, for example, and 1970’s. This was the style then recommended by the New York Times. Since then, both I and the Times have changed our opinions.
I now advise using only the s, with no apostrophe: 3s and 1970s. The third edition of my book Woe Is I (due out next year) and the children’s edition, Woe Is I Jr. (published in 2007), reflect this change. I still recommend using the apostrophe to pluralize a single letter for the sake of readability. Without it, a sentence like this is gibberish: “My name is full of as, is, and us.” Translation: “My name is full of a’s, i’s, and u’s.”
Yesterday: Five Lessons in Punctuation. Wednesday: Five Lessons in Grammar. Tuesday: Debunking Etymological Myths. Monday: Debunking Grammar Myths.
Hurrah! I’m so pleased you answered the question about pluralized numbers. It is a pet peeve of mine to see apostrophes with numbers, so I’m glad I have some legitimate back-up here. Thanks for your insightful answers!
posted by kristin on 5-9-2008 at 4:51 pm
As for the question about the Presidents Bush, my understanding is that there is only one President at a time; the rest should be referred to as Former Presidents. Is this correct? So, currently, it would be President Bush and Former President Bush. Next year, it will be the Former Presidents Bush.
Also, my nemesis has always been lay and lie. Do you have any memory joggers to help me overcome my brain freeze on this matter? Usually, I just reword the sentence to get around having to choose.
Thanks!
posted by Leslie on 5-9-2008 at 5:07 pm
Thanks for confirmation with regard to pluralized numbers. I admit, I used to be an offender (as well as for pluralized abbreviations like CDs).
Also, I find myself extremely nervous writing a sentence you might read. Just then, for example, I had to re-read your post to make sure I was using myself correctly!
posted by Nathan on 5-9-2008 at 5:53 pm
I wish everyone who uses myself and irregardless would read this! I cringe every time I hear those words tumbling out.
posted by lynne on 5-9-2008 at 5:59 pm
prescriptivists are the bane of linguists everywhere. i defy someone to explain, for example, the justification for the last rule (”I now advise using only the s, with no apostrophe: 3s and 1970s”). why? the sudden change of opinion indicates that the rule is arbitrary. did semantic chaos break out from the extra punctuation? did printers decide to cut out the apostrophe to save money on ink?
words gain meaning through a community of speakers which breathe life into largely arbitrary patterns of sound. ‘they’ means whatever people use it to mean. this article reflects some of the worst platonic nonsense there is. these rules require us to posit some abstract perfect language which ours emulates imperfectly. that’s not a particularly parsimonious way to view the world.
language evolves naturally, and it does so just fine without the help of self-important grammarians.
posted by michael on 5-9-2008 at 6:37 pm
Oh, please do help Leslie with lie and lay! The misuse of these words drives me mad, and one is apt to come upon misuse of either or both in places where such mistakes should be unthinkable. All that ranting has tired me–I’m going to go lie down, or lay down my body.
posted by Barbwire on 5-9-2008 at 6:59 pm
The most misused word is “jealous”. At least 90% of the time I hear people say it, the correct word to use is “envious”.
posted by PartiallyDeflected on 5-9-2008 at 8:29 pm
Leslie–
To lay is to put or place.
To lie is to rest or recline.
Lay and place both have long “a” sounds.
Lie and recline both have long “i” sounds.
Hope this helps!
posted by Heather on 5-9-2008 at 10:28 pm
I really enjoyed your posts this week, Patricia. I’m going to go out and buy your book—plus a copy of ‘Woe Is I Jr.’ for my nephew’s birthday. He’d probably rather get something Iron Man-themed, but he’ll grow to appreciate it!
posted by ryan on 5-9-2008 at 10:58 pm
Thanks for the numbers clarification. I’ve been using no apostrophe for the 80s but wasn’t sure if that was best. Now, what about an apostrophe before the decade? Is it better to say ’80s, with the apostrophe indicating the missing 19? Or is it OK to just say 80s?
posted by Miss Cellania on 5-10-2008 at 6:17 am
what about naseous vs. nauseated? that’s another one that drives me batty…
posted by mri on 5-10-2008 at 7:49 am
Woe is right. The answer for singular “they” is contrary to all the evidence–it’s one of those thick-headed responses that self-appointed grammar mavens pull out of the worst sort of reference books written by other self-appointed mavens only marginally smarter than they are and then trot around as if Moses brought it down from the mountain. Really, O’Conner, give it up. You’re tired here, you’re tired on the air, and you’ve only got the barest idea of what you’re talking about. Try doing some original research for once instead of accepting as gospel that which has already been disproven time and time again by people who are looking at evidence and not pandering to the peeving, peevish masses who want only to be placated and not to learn. Ugh.
posted by Michael Scott on 5-10-2008 at 8:25 am
Q1: I’ll agree that it’s less standard, but the question “Where’s my car at?” sounds fine in my English. The bigger problem I see with “Where you at?” is that missing verb.
“Where’re you at?” Seems fine. It’s just the 2nd person version of “Where’s he at?”, contracting “where are” instead of “where is”. And I can easily see someone reducing that extra bit of [r] and getting “Where you at?”… but the only time I’ve seen or heard that phrase has been in ads for Boost Mobile, so it feels odd and artificial and irks me just like it irks Fruppi.
Q2: I don’t know what person told you singular they is a no-no, but frankly: They’re wrong.
Rather than go on and on about singular they, I’ll just refer any interested parties to Language Log, which has covered this topic many, many times.
(Seems the commenting system here is so strict against links, I won’t even allow a raw URL. Best I can tell you is Google it.)
Q8: I view these plural apostrophes as something pretty arbitrary. You can use them if you want and omit them if you don’t. But I prefer their use as it helps kill ambiguity with technical terms that mix letters in with numbers.
Case in point: When someone in a cell phone forum posts “I hate the nokia 6500s!” I’m not sure if they’re talking about the 6500S (a specific model) or all versions of the 6500. If I was sure everyone subscribed to the “plural apostrophe” method, I’d know this guy has a beef with the slider-styled 6500, not 6500’s in general.
posted by blue_j on 5-10-2008 at 1:04 pm
@Leslie: I think of that old children’s nighttime prayer: “Now I lay me down to sleep…”
“I lay me down,” works, but “I lie me down,” doesn’t.
That’s because “lay” takes an object. You can “lay” things (in this case: “me”), but you can’t “lie” them. If you wanted use “lie”, you’d take the object out: “I lie down”
Want a less.. polite way to remember this? Get laid.
You can get “laid”, but you can’t get “lied”. Again, this is because “lay” takes an object (whoever’s getting laid) and “lie” doesn’t.
So yeah, basically: If you wanna lay something, go ahead and lay.. but if you wanna lie, you’re on your own.
posted by blue_j on 5-10-2008 at 6:13 pm
Michael-
Remind me…
Who’s the one refusing to use the shift key?
posted by Pointy-Hatted Geek on 5-11-2008 at 11:34 pm
I cant believe you responded to my comment about the English and their view of teams, etc being singular. Very cool. Thanks for the answer. BTW after I read this last week I spend WAY too much time on your blog haha.
And I just want to point out that Michael Scott didnt even have enough guts to use his real name!
posted by Rob on 5-12-2008 at 12:22 pm
I have loved this grammar series. The personable and easy-to-understand style of Patricia has been a delight to read, and I’ve looked forward to each new installment each day. I love languages, writing, and linguistics, but I’m far from a grammar nazi. In my opinion, they sap all of the fun out of words and enjoying the living language we speak. Still, I don’t want words to go extinct because we use other words inappropriately in their place nor do I want the grammar that polices our language and keeps it mutually intellegible to disappear. So, I appreciate a measured, good humored, and helpful approach to grammar, and I’d love to see more series like this.
posted by Andrea on 5-12-2008 at 12:44 pm
Aha! Vindication! I mentioned that biblical/classical possessive rule to someone recently and they thought I was nuts. I wasn’t aware of the “for goodness’ sake” rule, but I find it awesome enough so that I’ll heretofore be looking for excuses to inject it into my emails.
posted by lala on 5-13-2008 at 10:11 am
Please tell me whether you should use “then” or “than” in the following sentence: I am more serious than (or then?) you think.
posted by Suzette Wallace on 6-4-2008 at 7:02 pm