Fans from different baseball franchises have different ways of rooting for their teams. For instance, in Boston and New York they put their hands together and do something called clapping when they’re excited about something going on down on the diamond. Strange, I know, in this day and age, but the sport is still considered pretty sacred in some parts of the country.
Over here in California, where I hate living during baseball season, we’ve got thunder sticks (actually invented in South Korea and used there for years before being imported to the U.S.), and/or rally monkeys, thanks to the Angels. And we have the wave and negative chanting in Dodgers stadium.
There are many theories on the origin of the wave, with some saying it was started by college football teams, and others saying it comes from hockey. Regardless, it gained popularity in the 80s in Mexico during the FIFA Football World Cup at the Estadio Universitario in Monterrey. Whether it belongs in baseball or not, one thing I know doesn’t belong is the negative chants; specifically, “[insert name of other team] sucks!”
Yesterday, I was at the Dodgers/Phillies game and was once again amazed at how often Dodgers fans resort to the “Phillies Suck!” chant. I counted 37 instances, vis-Ã -vis 14 instances of “Let’s go Dodgers!”
Is this really what we want to be teaching all the young, innocent boys and girls being introduced to the game? Watching a seven-year-old’s face, I could see that he didn’t know whether to join in or refrain each time the crowd launched into another refrain.
And if you’re rooting your team on, why put the other team down? If the other team didn’t exist, you wouldn’t have a game to go to in the first place, right? Why not some respect, then? And, hey, if they really did suck, would they be in the NLCS? And not to let Boston and New York off the hook completely, we also know they’re guilty of their share of negative chants, although to a much lesser degree than what we’re subjected to out here in LA, where it’s as ubiquitous as late-comers to a playoff game.
Help me out here people: what can we do about it, at least for the sake of our kids?
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It had been several years since I’d been to a Dodger game before I went to the second game of the Dodgers/Cardinals division playoff. I was actually surprised to hear the prevalence of negative chanting. All my life growing up and taking in Dodger games, such things were rare in the stands. Maybe fans got tired of how often at televised away games the loudest cheers were often the “BEAT L.A.” ones. Or maybe they now enjoy riling up the inevitable opposing-team fan contingents (for LA is home to multitudes from other parts of the country) who show up in full regalia.
But hey, things change. And New Yorkers must have from your polite-clapping description — I remember the days of liberally thrown items on the outfield in Yankee Stadium.
Speaking of Dodger fan behavior, what’s your take on the spinning towels?
posted by VM on 10-17-2009 at 12:47 pm
And not to let Boston and New York off the hook completely, we also know they’re guilty of their share of negative chants, although to a much lesser degree than what we’re subjected to out here in LA
To a much lesser degree?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwBa3XA3Sl4
(NSFW chanting)
And that’s to a FAN.
posted by dave on 10-17-2009 at 12:54 pm
BAN negative chanting? That’s the solution?! “BAN it!!”
How about not participating in it as a matter of principle and example to your fellow fans? Let them decide for themselves.
Why is it that everybody feels the need to ban things they find disagreeable? Words, behaviors, guns, motorcycles, dirtbikes and ATVs, billboard advertisements/slogans, symbols on public display, books… choose whatver and it seems like somebody is trying to ban it.
How very selfish we have all become.
posted by roi_ratt on 10-17-2009 at 1:06 pm
I’m a huge Dodgers fan, and while I definitely am against the negative chants (my 5 year old knows never to take part in them), your comment about late-comers to an NLCS game is disingenuous.
See, MLB schedules all West Coast games so that the East Coast viewers can see them after work. For instance, Game 1 of the NLCS was airing on the East Coast at 8pm, yet was only 5pm here in LA. Now, the bulk of workers in LA don’t get off until 5pm. So, the stadium remained shockingly empty until the 3rd inning or so.
I heard MANY comments from East Coasters about how Dodgers’ fans aren’t real baseball fans, because LA can’t even sell-out a Championship Game. However, if they were to have watched the entire game, they would have seen that by the 5th/6th inning, the entire stadium was filled.
Same is to be said for the ONE O’CLOCK (!!!) game yesterday. So, while it appears as if LA doesn’t have fans who see fit to arrive to a game on-time, the reality is that everything here on the West bows down to the almighty East Coast viewers who need their entertainment scheduled around them.
Late-comers to the NLCS were simply people who could not leave work early, and then got stuck in traffic.
posted by Cory on 10-17-2009 at 1:07 pm
for sure, all teams are guilty of negative chants these days. my point was that here in LA, it’s way way way more ubiquitous than positive chants. and there’s something sad and very wrong with that. obviously it can’t be ‘banned’ – but i pose the question: what can be done about it?
posted by David K. Israel on 10-17-2009 at 1:14 pm
What’s interesting is the complaint about negative chanting from fans of a team that is notorious for having mild-mannered, well-spoken, polite players. You’ll almost NEVER hear a Dodger in the news shooting his mouth off, or posturing against another team. However, you *will* hear that from at least one player on any other team.
To me, that’s what’s most important: to follow a team that is respectful, modest, and humble. The fans? You can’t control them, or take ownership of them. When fans of other teams complain about our fans, I tell them that I’m not that fan; but, that I *could* complain about what Player X on their team said in an interview last week about the Dodgers (i.e. Prince Fielder yelling and breaking into the Dodgers’ clubhouse, because he was upset with how close the pitches were to his humongous stomach).
That’s a more serious problem, in my mind…not Fielder’s stomach — though, that is an issue that warrants investigation — but, rather, the smack talk from Player-to-Player that is their own version of “______s Suck.”
posted by Cory on 10-17-2009 at 1:24 pm
I’m a SF Giant fan. The worst we ever chant is “Beat LA.” The rest is along the line “Let’s Go Giants Let’s Go!”
posted by Emily S. S. on 10-17-2009 at 1:50 pm
Hopefully the Dodgers’ success in the past few seasons will bring in new fans and boost pride in the team, which I think could help curb this problem. In my experience, when the team is winning, or at least has a chance to win, fans want to cheer them on. But when it looks like they aren’t going to win, fans would rather say something spiteful to the other team. (This seemed to go double for college hockey.)
The last Braves game I went to was when the Yankees came to town, and despite all the venom they may have for the Red Sox, none of the Yankees fans said anything negative. And I think it’s because they know they’ve got a good team and a lot to root for. When you’re putting down the other team instead of rooting for the team you really came to see, it’s often because you’ve given up on beating them.
My advice if you’re at the game is to not give up on your team- the great thing about baseball is there’s no clock, so there’s a chance they could score as many runs as they need next time they come up to bat. Rather than sitting quietly and feeling embarrassed for your home crowd’s lack of sportsmanship, try to get a cheer going for the Dodgers and drown out the “Phillies suck!” crowd.
posted by Jim on 10-17-2009 at 3:21 pm
Ah yes the wonderful sportsmanship in New York, where battery throwing is an art form.
posted by PartiallyDeflected on 10-17-2009 at 4:45 pm
“the reality is that everything here on the West bows down to the almighty East Coast viewers who need their entertainment scheduled around them.”
are you kidding? in the last series the phillies last two games against colorado started at 9:30 and 10 pm. hardly catering to our schedules. that sunday night game didnt end til 2:30 am est.
posted by mary on 10-17-2009 at 4:47 pm
Not to get in a back-and-forth, but the Monday game between Phillies/Rockies was at 6pmEST/3pmPST.
And, game times *are* in fact all scheduled around EST. The reason why any NLDS/NLCS game might start later on the East Coast than the sweet-spot of 7PM is because the ALDS/ALCS trumps all. Scheduling preference is given to a series with the Yankees, because the Yankees command more ratings than Phillies/Rockies or Phillies/Dodgers.
Case-in-point? Dodgers/Phillies game started at 4pmEST/1pmPST. The Yankees/Angels started at 8pmEST/5pmPST. So, yes, preference is given to East Coasters.
posted by Cory on 10-17-2009 at 5:25 pm
My motto is “Be the change you want to see in the world” Kudos for an excellent article. I don’t agree with banning as thats a little harsh, but I agree that it’s poor sportsmanship and I don’t participate in negative chanting.
Although I’m not above the occasional boo if the person did something nasty to my team.
And just to weigh in on the time difference. NHL games are typically at 7 in the time zone it’s played. Being a Wings fan I’ve stayed up well past midnight for games on the west coast.
posted by hockey zombie on 10-17-2009 at 6:52 pm
I seriously doubt the wave originated in hockey. I’ve been a hockey fan since I was a little kid and have been to hundreds of games in multiple professional levels in the US and Canada and I have NEVER seen the wave at any game.
I have been to far more hockey games than baseball games but taunting seems to be a universal part of fan participation and a psychological component in which the fans feel they are helping their team. For the most part it in fun and rarely vicious. point in fact, in Vancouver, it is common for the fans to chant “BULLSH*t” when they don’t agree with a call.
As for the children, it is the parents responsibility to educate their children and explain how the world works.
I also think you give New York too much credit also. I remember several games where batteries and trash were thrown on the field and at players and officals. There was an instance where a Bowie knife was thrown at Wally Joyner. [ref: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19860827&id=ztgVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xBIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4226,1336829. So everything needs to be taken in perspective and no one is above reproach.
posted by Bill on 10-17-2009 at 6:58 pm
You have obviously never met the Yankee Stadium Bleacher Creatures.
In a similar vein, while walking out of Yankees Stadium after ALDS game 2 (Teixiera walk off, hells yeah), I heard a little boy say to his dad, “Boston sucks ass.”
posted by Liz on 10-17-2009 at 7:03 pm
You can’t “ban” stuff very effectively, but I think NOT leading negative cheering from the pressbox/announcing booth, etc. may be the answer. As a cheer coach, we do not allow our cheerleaders to lead negative cheers. If the crowd chooses to start one, we do not join in. When the negativity is spewed from a public place, then it’s assumed that that behavior is accepted and expected. I think that’s deplorable.
posted by Daphne on 10-17-2009 at 8:56 pm
I actually diasgree that the negative chanting “way way way” outweighed the positive in my latest experience. You’re probably discounting anything led by the organist, who leaps into the breach so often that there’s almost never a chance to strike up a spontaneous positive cheer. Of course an “anything sucks” cheer is not going to be prompted by the organist! So it’ll stick out in your consideration as the “real” cheer of the fan. All I know is that I didn’t join in one “Cardinals suck” and it still took four days for my voice to recuperate.
Of course, maybe that was true of where I was sitting. A couple of times it did sound like that other sections were, ah, more perilous territory.
(Okay, my first entry’s reCaptcha was “LA tamely”, now it’s “yes odium”. What are the odds?)
posted by VM on 10-17-2009 at 9:21 pm
Have you ever been to a game in Boston? We can be pretty brutal (I never am, of course)
p.s….in light of my blessed Red Sox not going to the post season….YANKEES SUCK! :-)
recaptcha 10 jiggled…hahaha
posted by Meg on 10-17-2009 at 9:49 pm
Let’s go ANGELS!!! (And I agree – the rally monkey is stupid)
posted by taylor on 10-17-2009 at 10:26 pm
The article sounds like a lot of wah-wah-wah from somebody whose below mediocre team failed to make the playoffs or finish above .500 – probably a Royals, Orioles or Cubs fan. Chump.
posted by SoCalPerson on 10-17-2009 at 10:46 pm
They start the hate young. But it can be headed off.
http://xkcd.com/588/
posted by Jess on 10-17-2009 at 11:55 pm
Hey, I love the rally monkey! It is my favorite memory of childhood baseball games, I remembering chanting “rally monkey, rally monkey” prematurely from the moment the game started. (he only comes out if the angels were behind by the 7th inning.)
But I can definitely agree on how annoying Dodger fans are…even outside of the stadiums.
posted by Melissa on 10-18-2009 at 3:16 am
I totally agree with Melissa. I love the rally monkey! As for a solution to your negative fan problem, switch over the the Halos. We’re positive people. :) The only time I hear negative stuff is when the Yankees are in town.
posted by Tricia on 10-18-2009 at 4:21 am
a few years ago i was at a wedding in new york. the groom was from boston, and the bride from long island. during the reception a table on the groom’s side erupted into a “yankees suck” chant that took a few minutes to die. and last year i was at a bruins game where multiple “yankees suck” chants were started during the game. it’s the most embarrassing part of being a red sox fan.
posted by jessica on 10-18-2009 at 10:48 am
Please, Angel fans can be just as bad as Dodger fans. In fact, which stadium had a higher mortality rate in their parking lots? I believe the big A takes that cake.
posted by Lbchomer on 10-18-2009 at 11:13 am
I don’t think this is such an East Coast/West Coast thing as the author implies. For example, the Phillies fans are known to be pretty harsh, and Oakland fans (baseball that is), despite the teams’s dreary record, are more positive than negative in my experience. I like to think of “real” baseball fans, i.e. those who actually know and respect the game, as those very ones who are more supportive than derisive.
posted by PW on 10-18-2009 at 11:16 am
I’m amused at how the Dodgers fans have been chanting “Phillies suck” when the Dodgers are losing. Who does that? We may do “(opposing team) sucks” chants in Philly but only when they actually suck in comparison.
posted by C on 10-18-2009 at 2:03 pm
I was at the game yesterday also. I am a huge Phillies fan and the Dodgers fans make me laugh. We are the defending champs and yet they chant we suck. We already did what we needed to do game 1 which was get the split and take home field.
If you think that Dodgers fans are rude wait until tonight in Philly. Philly fans make Dodger fans look like the wine and cheese crowd they are. You have to have a death wish to wear opposing team colors in Philly.
posted by Eyevee on 10-18-2009 at 6:09 pm
When I was a kid, I was so ashamed at the negative Phillies fans (they would boo their own team sometimes), that I defected and become a Cubs fan.
Ragarding negative chants at ballgames, maybe the organist could start up a cheer of something positive to drown them out.
posted by Jean on 10-18-2009 at 11:36 pm
Wow! Why does this garbage bother me anymore? Your from Philly, right David? Upset over the game two loss, you decided to vent your frustrations by bashing Dodger and Angel fans. This article comes across as very arrogant,hypocritical and self-righteous. Maybe you can get all the New York, Boston and Philly fans together and produce a “how to be a proper baseball fan” dvd for all of us boorish Angel and Dodger fans.
posted by Jack on 10-19-2009 at 5:05 am
Regardless of the coast and the league, I refuse to participate in negative chanting, and have made that clear to my kids from the time they were young. I model positive behavior and hope that they learn from me. I can’t stop others from being negative, but I can choose to distance myself from that behavior. Whether at the stadium or at the office, negativity is unnecessary. I just look at it this way, whoever is being boo-ed is someone’s brother, son, father, sister, daughter and/or mother. Would you want people treating your family member that way?
posted by Hyacinth on 10-19-2009 at 8:40 am
I’m a member of the Red Sox nation, and I have been known to utter the aforementioned phrase. However, I have a problem with it being used out of context. At other sporting events, or at a game between teams not including the Yankees… that’s just awful. However, if I were to (wake up to find the underworld frozen over and) marry a Yankee fan, I would be diasppointed if the situation Jessica described didn’t happen! :0)
(reCaptcha – Lolich priories – how appropriate)
posted by Heather on 10-19-2009 at 8:52 am
Maybe it’s because here in America we have a different idea of what “good sportsmanship” is, or our over-emphasis on phamily values, but regardless, David K. Israel, if you are put off by “[insert team name here] sucks!” chants for it’s vulgarity, I suggest you quash any interest you may have in international sports.
posted by Joel on 10-19-2009 at 8:55 am
Cory – you talk about a 1 pm start in LA being ample excuse for empty seats during an NLCS. If the Phillies can have record attendance for back to back, mid week 2:30 games in the NLDS, LA should be able to fill their stadium for the start of a single 1 pm game on a Friday in the NLCS.
posted by Dennis on 10-19-2009 at 9:05 am
There is nothing more fun that heckling an opposing team or player. It is the reason many of us go to baseball games. There is certainly a way to heckle with out offending anyone in the stands, while at the same time really irritating the player or team you’re hecking.
For example, find out the hometown of a player then ask loudly while he’s on deck, something would like to know about his hometown, over and over again.
This works really well at Minor League games…just watch the “foul” language.
posted by graham on 10-19-2009 at 10:05 am
and if you’re team is doing badly, remember those paper bags over the head are SO last century. Go green and use a reusable cloth bag – unless you’re a Yankee’s fan then you should by all means use a plastic bag with no airholes.
posted by PartiallyDeflected on 10-19-2009 at 1:01 pm
Hey david (the writer) why don’t you take a shot of concrete and harden up buddy? it’s baseball!
why do you hate LA so much? I sincerely suggest you never bring your 5 year old to a raiders game. If you do i strongly recommend you wear a raiders jersey or else you will see california in all it’s sports revelry hahaha.
posted by xanderjones on 10-19-2009 at 1:31 pm
Jean – we don’t want you then. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
And Dennis, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to mention the same thing.
posted by Go Phillies on 10-19-2009 at 1:37 pm
Baseball chants aside, college basketball by far can be responsible for the worst chants in sports. I seem to remember a certain college team in Maryland chanting F*** you, JJ (JJ Redick) every time he shot free throws while displaying signs bragging about “sleeping with his sister” who happened to be 12 years old at the time. With that said, Ill take “Phillies Suck” any day of the week. So,a “shot of concrete” is definitly needed. Instead of blaming all of the people there enjoying a little ribbing of the other team, teach your kids the difference between right and wrong so that they can make that decision themselves.
posted by Ryan on 10-19-2009 at 3:19 pm
Philadelphia is a blue-collared town. We take our sports seriously, for some it’s religion. The rest of the country hates us and our behavior and we’re proud. Each piece of bad press for fans at a sporting event is a badge of honor, and despite what anyone might tell you, that’s the way we like it.
Game 5 to Manny: TAKE A SHOWER! TAKE A SHOWER!
posted by Jim on 10-23-2009 at 2:48 pm