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	<title>Comments on: Roller Pigeons</title>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-458212</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>first thing is that rollers do not have a genetic defect and what they do has nothing to do with seizures . my son is epaleptic and you cannot make siezuers hapen simaltaniuslyit is a highly developed part of brain that no scientist can tell exactly how it functions and to the haulk statements. haulks are exstreemly overpopulated and as far as im conserned there should be an anual cull of them but there are allways peaple who dont know the facts and the fact is that i dont personaly kill rapters but they have devastated the livestock for most of us and i have never seen a haulk controll any rodent population thay kill almost exclusively birds and that means the other protected birds that is why they migreat with them. so peaple should stop calling us killers  before they start telling us we cant have our birds cuz if you really understood rollers you wuold understand that they are bred athleats and an wonder of mans creation compleetly worth mans protection, but like most ther is always ignorence among the unknowlegded</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>first thing is that rollers do not have a genetic defect and what they do has nothing to do with seizures . my son is epaleptic and you cannot make siezuers hapen simaltaniuslyit is a highly developed part of brain that no scientist can tell exactly how it functions and to the haulk statements. haulks are exstreemly overpopulated and as far as im conserned there should be an anual cull of them but there are allways peaple who dont know the facts and the fact is that i dont personaly kill rapters but they have devastated the livestock for most of us and i have never seen a haulk controll any rodent population thay kill almost exclusively birds and that means the other protected birds that is why they migreat with them. so peaple should stop calling us killers  before they start telling us we cant have our birds cuz if you really understood rollers you wuold understand that they are bred athleats and an wonder of mans creation compleetly worth mans protection, but like most ther is always ignorence among the unknowlegded</p>
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		<title>By: johnny</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-415838</link>
		<dc:creator>johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-415838</guid>
		<description>the only good pigeon is a dead one. one of my neighbors had a bunch of these flying rats in a coop. he tried to kill my cat because it got &quot;too close&quot; to the coop/roost/whatever. one night it mysteriously burnt down....with all the birds inside....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the only good pigeon is a dead one. one of my neighbors had a bunch of these flying rats in a coop. he tried to kill my cat because it got &#8220;too close&#8221; to the coop/roost/whatever. one night it mysteriously burnt down&#8230;.with all the birds inside&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: cindy olen</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-381576</link>
		<dc:creator>cindy olen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 07:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-381576</guid>
		<description>I once had small flock of Birmingham Rollers and lived in a rural area full of hawks and falcons. I knew the risks of letting my birds fly, but I flew them anyway. They are truly amazing birds to watch (it&#039;s not a cheap laugh). My impression was that their behaviour was voluntary and controlled, not simply a seizure or some reflexive act. Maybe I was projecting my own delight at their aerobatics, but I believed they actually enjoyed it, that it was a kind of play. I even watched a sparrow, a hen that had attached itself to my flock, do a roll along with my birds. It was awesome.

At the time, my own theory for the rolling was that it was a genetically-induced and overdeveloped hawk evasion behaviour (dropping out of the sky at the approach of a stooping falcon with some tumbling mixed in). This seemed to explain why the birds would perform this trick together, usually with one starting, and the rest following as if taking their cues from the one &quot;who saw the hawk first.&quot; Maybe this is why the sparrow tumbled that dayâ€”she was reacting to what she thought was an evasive maneuver by her flock mates. Flocking birds take their cues from each other, so this explanation seemed reasonable. Nothing that I observed or understood at the time suggested that their rolling was anything but completely voluntary.

Since then, my opinion has been somewhat modified. I&#039;m not convinced that it&#039;s a seizure disorder, but neither am I set that it&#039;s completely voluntary. I believe there is an element of instinct and reflex involved. I&#039;m more inclined to think as Mr. Siders doesâ€”that it&#039;s a recessive behavioural trait like those found in specialist dog breeds. A strong example of that can be found in any purebred Border Collie which will go into a stalk-and-herd series of behaviours whenever an opportunity to herd something presents itself. The dogs do not have to be  taught to do thisâ€”it&#039;s an instinctive, though modified and tightly controlled, hunting behaviour for which we have selectively bred in these dogs. It&#039;s possible that the origin of rolling pigeons has a similar startâ€”an unusual twist in an otherwise normal, genetically determined, instinctive action (like evading a hawk), catches the fancy of some human pigeon keeper. I won&#039;t know for certain if rolling can be deemed a pathological seizure disorder until some genome work and actual brain studies on pigeons can be done. Until then, I would agree that it is more like the specialized behaviours of working dogs and is thus simply an augmentation of normal instinctive behaviour, or even of normal play behaviour (birds will tumble about in flight as a form of playâ€”watch ravens playing in the wind sometime).

To get back to the hawk issue. I loved my birds. They were pets, not a commercial or competitive enterprise. However, no way would I ever have put them ahead of a wild bird, especially a raptor. I look at the issue of raptor vs domestic pigeon the same way that I look at any wildlife vs any domesticated animalâ€”I side with the wildlife...always, whether it be beef cattle or borzois, hamsters or house cats, no domestic will ever overtop a natural wild animal in my list of moral priorities.

There are millions of domesticated non-feral pigeons, with hundreds of thousands of them aerial performers of one kind or another, and like any very numerous domesticated animal, they are not in danger of extinction (unless and until their human breeders lose interest in them). Wildlife, on the other hand, particularly those at or near the top of food chains, are under constant threat of extinction at the hands of human beings. Our pigeons can withstand the pressure of raptor predationâ€”the raptors cannot withstand the pressures of hunting and habitat loss that we put on them.

I&#039;m one of those people who sees feral cats as an ongoing threat to songbirds and rare reptiles and amphibians. As such, I don&#039;t agree with the trap, neuter, and release programs which &quot;bleeding hearts&quot; promote as the humane way of dealing with the feral cat problem. I say eradicate them, like they do in Australia where feral cats are shot on sight in an effort to protect what&#039;s left of the country&#039;s rare and unique marsupials. I say this as an ardent cat lover who nevertheless cannot put the survival of a house cat above that of a Giant Pacific Salamander. I keep my cats indoors, not just to protect them from the traffic outside my window, but to protect the birds outside that same window from them.

I loved my pigeons, but when one of my hens did not return from a flight, I did not go gunning for the hawk that I was sure must have got her. That would have been wrong, if for no other reason than that she could have been replaced easily, but not so the hawk. Given the time of year, the hawk probably had youngâ€”killing that hawk would have meant the death of its chicks as well. Was that manmade pet worth more than the nature-made hawk? Not to me.

Those pigeon hobbyists who killed hawks to protect their flocks acted selfishly and with no regard for the future. I class them in with fashion hounds who still think it&#039;s okay to wear the skin of leopards, and with those who consume shark fin soup because they worry about their virility. No excuse nor argument they could offer in their defense will suffice to lessen the heinousness of what they&#039;ve done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once had small flock of Birmingham Rollers and lived in a rural area full of hawks and falcons. I knew the risks of letting my birds fly, but I flew them anyway. They are truly amazing birds to watch (it&#8217;s not a cheap laugh). My impression was that their behaviour was voluntary and controlled, not simply a seizure or some reflexive act. Maybe I was projecting my own delight at their aerobatics, but I believed they actually enjoyed it, that it was a kind of play. I even watched a sparrow, a hen that had attached itself to my flock, do a roll along with my birds. It was awesome.</p>
<p>At the time, my own theory for the rolling was that it was a genetically-induced and overdeveloped hawk evasion behaviour (dropping out of the sky at the approach of a stooping falcon with some tumbling mixed in). This seemed to explain why the birds would perform this trick together, usually with one starting, and the rest following as if taking their cues from the one &#8220;who saw the hawk first.&#8221; Maybe this is why the sparrow tumbled that dayâ€”she was reacting to what she thought was an evasive maneuver by her flock mates. Flocking birds take their cues from each other, so this explanation seemed reasonable. Nothing that I observed or understood at the time suggested that their rolling was anything but completely voluntary.</p>
<p>Since then, my opinion has been somewhat modified. I&#8217;m not convinced that it&#8217;s a seizure disorder, but neither am I set that it&#8217;s completely voluntary. I believe there is an element of instinct and reflex involved. I&#8217;m more inclined to think as Mr. Siders doesâ€”that it&#8217;s a recessive behavioural trait like those found in specialist dog breeds. A strong example of that can be found in any purebred Border Collie which will go into a stalk-and-herd series of behaviours whenever an opportunity to herd something presents itself. The dogs do not have to be  taught to do thisâ€”it&#8217;s an instinctive, though modified and tightly controlled, hunting behaviour for which we have selectively bred in these dogs. It&#8217;s possible that the origin of rolling pigeons has a similar startâ€”an unusual twist in an otherwise normal, genetically determined, instinctive action (like evading a hawk), catches the fancy of some human pigeon keeper. I won&#8217;t know for certain if rolling can be deemed a pathological seizure disorder until some genome work and actual brain studies on pigeons can be done. Until then, I would agree that it is more like the specialized behaviours of working dogs and is thus simply an augmentation of normal instinctive behaviour, or even of normal play behaviour (birds will tumble about in flight as a form of playâ€”watch ravens playing in the wind sometime).</p>
<p>To get back to the hawk issue. I loved my birds. They were pets, not a commercial or competitive enterprise. However, no way would I ever have put them ahead of a wild bird, especially a raptor. I look at the issue of raptor vs domestic pigeon the same way that I look at any wildlife vs any domesticated animalâ€”I side with the wildlife&#8230;always, whether it be beef cattle or borzois, hamsters or house cats, no domestic will ever overtop a natural wild animal in my list of moral priorities.</p>
<p>There are millions of domesticated non-feral pigeons, with hundreds of thousands of them aerial performers of one kind or another, and like any very numerous domesticated animal, they are not in danger of extinction (unless and until their human breeders lose interest in them). Wildlife, on the other hand, particularly those at or near the top of food chains, are under constant threat of extinction at the hands of human beings. Our pigeons can withstand the pressure of raptor predationâ€”the raptors cannot withstand the pressures of hunting and habitat loss that we put on them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m one of those people who sees feral cats as an ongoing threat to songbirds and rare reptiles and amphibians. As such, I don&#8217;t agree with the trap, neuter, and release programs which &#8220;bleeding hearts&#8221; promote as the humane way of dealing with the feral cat problem. I say eradicate them, like they do in Australia where feral cats are shot on sight in an effort to protect what&#8217;s left of the country&#8217;s rare and unique marsupials. I say this as an ardent cat lover who nevertheless cannot put the survival of a house cat above that of a Giant Pacific Salamander. I keep my cats indoors, not just to protect them from the traffic outside my window, but to protect the birds outside that same window from them.</p>
<p>I loved my pigeons, but when one of my hens did not return from a flight, I did not go gunning for the hawk that I was sure must have got her. That would have been wrong, if for no other reason than that she could have been replaced easily, but not so the hawk. Given the time of year, the hawk probably had youngâ€”killing that hawk would have meant the death of its chicks as well. Was that manmade pet worth more than the nature-made hawk? Not to me.</p>
<p>Those pigeon hobbyists who killed hawks to protect their flocks acted selfishly and with no regard for the future. I class them in with fashion hounds who still think it&#8217;s okay to wear the skin of leopards, and with those who consume shark fin soup because they worry about their virility. No excuse nor argument they could offer in their defense will suffice to lessen the heinousness of what they&#8217;ve done.</p>
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		<title>By: GuesssWho</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-79957</link>
		<dc:creator>GuesssWho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-79957</guid>
		<description>@Sara: Yeah, he did say that in the book didn&#039;t he?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sara: Yeah, he did say that in the book didn&#8217;t he?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Siders</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-55321</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Siders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-55321</guid>
		<description>What are the herbs used to avoid attacks of BOP on my birds?  That would be very interesting and there are a lot of people who would be interested.

Again, I want to reinterate that the rolling is not a defect.  It is a trait.  Birmingham Rollers will shut the roll off when being pursued by BOP and if they go ferrel living and flying with common pigeons will cease rolling.  It is a trait that is born from a ressesive gene.  That is why not all Birmingham Rollers roll and if you breed them to a non-rolling breed the roll is sometimes lost.

It is not a defect!  It is not a siesure.  It is like the hunting dog points or sets....a trait.

Thanks,

Nick Siders</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are the herbs used to avoid attacks of BOP on my birds?  That would be very interesting and there are a lot of people who would be interested.</p>
<p>Again, I want to reinterate that the rolling is not a defect.  It is a trait.  Birmingham Rollers will shut the roll off when being pursued by BOP and if they go ferrel living and flying with common pigeons will cease rolling.  It is a trait that is born from a ressesive gene.  That is why not all Birmingham Rollers roll and if you breed them to a non-rolling breed the roll is sometimes lost.</p>
<p>It is not a defect!  It is not a siesure.  It is like the hunting dog points or sets&#8230;.a trait.</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Nick Siders</p>
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		<title>By: PAUL DERSCH</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-55243</link>
		<dc:creator>PAUL DERSCH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-55243</guid>
		<description>It amazes me how IGNORANT some people are.If you don&#039;t know anything about a subject,please don&#039;t be so fast as to show us HOW ignorant you really are. I know that the hawks are a protected bird.Their needs to be checks and  balances.The hawks have no preditors to control their population.Too many BLEEDING hearts out here.We need to get back to a means of control.What ever happend to the natural way of doing things??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It amazes me how IGNORANT some people are.If you don&#8217;t know anything about a subject,please don&#8217;t be so fast as to show us HOW ignorant you really are. I know that the hawks are a protected bird.Their needs to be checks and  balances.The hawks have no preditors to control their population.Too many BLEEDING hearts out here.We need to get back to a means of control.What ever happend to the natural way of doing things??</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Ashcraft</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-54375</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Ashcraft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-54375</guid>
		<description>Ive been in pigeons 60 yrs,racing and roller pigeons,most of the answers i see, are from lack of knowledge,pigeons are the oldest sport known to man,they are the only animal that can see ultra violet lights, the only animal that can hear ultra sonic sounds,can return home from half way around the world,have saved thousands of our soldiers lives,these birds are in every war. they are now being used to spot people lost at sea,because of their keen eye sight,they are used in England to fly blood samples from hospital to the lab, in minutes,it takes over on hour the old way,by car.Man has bred them to fly longer,and faster,some have even arrived home after dark,think about that, flying in the dark,wow...As for the rollers, man has developed and bred these birds to spin with controlled activity and patterns,and for you guys who want more info,look up other acrobats such as Donak,pigeons,Parlor Rollers,Tipplers,Galentez rollers, Moriscar rollers Whittingham rollers,I can name many more birds that perform,if need be,So if a member of YOUR family was ever in the ARMY ask him or her about the Signal Corps, they may have a little info for you,these are the guys that handled the birds.These birds are very intelligent they are doing great things,so DONT be too quick to judge,WHAT HAS A HAWK DONE FOR YOU TODAY?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ive been in pigeons 60 yrs,racing and roller pigeons,most of the answers i see, are from lack of knowledge,pigeons are the oldest sport known to man,they are the only animal that can see ultra violet lights, the only animal that can hear ultra sonic sounds,can return home from half way around the world,have saved thousands of our soldiers lives,these birds are in every war. they are now being used to spot people lost at sea,because of their keen eye sight,they are used in England to fly blood samples from hospital to the lab, in minutes,it takes over on hour the old way,by car.Man has bred them to fly longer,and faster,some have even arrived home after dark,think about that, flying in the dark,wow&#8230;As for the rollers, man has developed and bred these birds to spin with controlled activity and patterns,and for you guys who want more info,look up other acrobats such as Donak,pigeons,Parlor Rollers,Tipplers,Galentez rollers, Moriscar rollers Whittingham rollers,I can name many more birds that perform,if need be,So if a member of YOUR family was ever in the ARMY ask him or her about the Signal Corps, they may have a little info for you,these are the guys that handled the birds.These birds are very intelligent they are doing great things,so DONT be too quick to judge,WHAT HAS A HAWK DONE FOR YOU TODAY?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-52814</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-52814</guid>
		<description>You can use herbs to stop birds of prey attacking you kit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can use herbs to stop birds of prey attacking you kit.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Siders</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-37398</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Siders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 06:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-37398</guid>
		<description>Trait is the proper description.  It is genetically locked into the bird as a recessive gene.

I can also understand the desire to protect thier property.  I believe that is a natural reaction; they just need to find a legal way of doing it.  They also need to change thier habits and learn the habits of bitds of prey and do what they can to avoid attacks and radicate the bird of prey&#039;s habitate and concealment.  They also can seek permits to capture birds of prey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trait is the proper description.  It is genetically locked into the bird as a recessive gene.</p>
<p>I can also understand the desire to protect thier property.  I believe that is a natural reaction; they just need to find a legal way of doing it.  They also need to change thier habits and learn the habits of bitds of prey and do what they can to avoid attacks and radicate the bird of prey&#8217;s habitate and concealment.  They also can seek permits to capture birds of prey.</p>
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		<title>By: Higgins</title>
		<link>http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376/comment-page-1#comment-25544</link>
		<dc:creator>Higgins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/6376#comment-25544</guid>
		<description>Dennis - take another look at the article above.  I believe you&#039;ll see that I am not painting all roller pigeon breeders as hawk killers.  I&#039;m sorry if you got that impression, but it&#039;s not supported by the text.  The article is focused on Operation High Roller, which targeted a specific subset of roller clubs, and this is clearly explained above.

As for whether the tumbling is caused for seizures or because the birds want to do it, I&#039;m not an expert -- however, the popular consensus on the issue (at least on the web) appears to be that this behavior is indeed caused by seizures.  Do you have any data on this issue, either way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis &#8211; take another look at the article above.  I believe you&#8217;ll see that I am not painting all roller pigeon breeders as hawk killers.  I&#8217;m sorry if you got that impression, but it&#8217;s not supported by the text.  The article is focused on Operation High Roller, which targeted a specific subset of roller clubs, and this is clearly explained above.</p>
<p>As for whether the tumbling is caused for seizures or because the birds want to do it, I&#8217;m not an expert &#8212; however, the popular consensus on the issue (at least on the web) appears to be that this behavior is indeed caused by seizures.  Do you have any data on this issue, either way?</p>
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